Carl Icahn to Sell Notorious Nashville Property (Here's The Scoop)
In this interview, we sit down with Nathan Weinberg, an experienced real estate developer in East Nashville, to get his insights on the sale of the Icahn scrapyard. We discuss the potential impact of this large-scale redevelopment on the city, the challenges and opportunities it presents, and how it could shape Nashville's future. Nathan shares his thoughts on urban planning, community engagement, and what this transformation could mean for Nashville’s evolving identity.
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Key Takeaways:
The PSC Metals property owned by Carl Icahn is a significant urban redevelopment opportunity in Nashville, located on the Cumberland River near downtown.
The property has been a scrapyard for decades and is heavily contaminated, potentially requiring hundreds of millions of dollars to clean up.
Redeveloping the site will be complex, requiring collaboration with the city, state, and federal government, as well as community engagement.
The redevelopment is expected to include vertical, mixed-use development with residential, commercial, and hospitality components, as well as public spaces and infrastructure improvements.
Integrating public transportation, such as a trolley system or water taxis, is seen as an important aspect of the redevelopment.
The community and local politicians will play a key role in shaping the redevelopment, and constructive engagement will be crucial to the project's success.
The redevelopment is viewed as a legacy project that could transform Nashville's riverfront and serve as a model for urban revitalization.
About Your Host:
Tyler Cauble, Founder & President of The Cauble Group, is a commercial real estate broker and investor based in East Nashville. He’s the best selling author of Open for Business: The Insider’s Guide to Leasing Commercial Real Estate and has focused his career on serving commercial real estate investors.
Episode Transcript:
Tyler Cauble 0:00
Are you looking to take the next step toward investing in commercial real estate? But don't know where to go. Series central offers a comprehensive education and coaching platform designed to help you get started. Our online courses cover a wide range of topics, from the fundamentals to advanced strategies, ensuring you have the knowledge and skills needed to thrive in this competitive industry. As a member, you'll gain access to our exclusive online community and monthly group coaching calls, providing you with valuable networking opportunities and personalized guidance from experienced professionals, whether you're a beginner or looking to take your career to the next level. Cre Central has the resources you need visit www.crecentral.com to learn more. Welcome back to the commercial real estate investor podcast. We are live from the cobble group studio here in Nashville, Tennessee, and today we're gonna be diving into a really interesting story on a major asset that has finally been listed for sale. It's one of those properties that I believe every single mayor in my lifetime here in Nashville has said they were going to do something about this, and it's never happened. It's the Carl Icahn owned, PSC metals, 45 acre side, give or take, down by the Titan stadium, almost right next to downtown Nashville. I mean, in my opinion, and I'm sure you guys are going to jump in with some comments on what you might disagree with me on this one on I think it's the biggest urban redevelopment opportunity, if not one of the biggest urban redevelopment opportunities in the United States at this time. It's a really big deal. Really excited to see this one going to auction. And of course, we're joined by none other than Nathan Weinberg, good friend of mine. He's been involved in real estate in Nashville for a long time, a real estate developer in East Nashville, which is this side of town where this this property is, and he's very involved civically. So I couldn't think of anybody better to have this discussion with than you. Man, thank you. Thanks for being here. This can be a fun one. I'm
Unknown Speaker 1:55
pumped about it. I
Tyler Cauble 1:56
was already learning more about this, and I didn't. I mean, I've lived here my entire life, and you were already educating me on what has been going on. Catch us up. What is this? What is this site?
Speaker 1 2:06
So this site sits on the Cumberland River, which is directly across from downtown Nashville, directly across from downtown Nashville, and adjacent to the new Well, the existing and the new Titan Stadium and the redevelopment project associated with that, which is the east bank. And what has existed here since I've lived here, and since people like you have been alive here, has been a scrap metal recycling facility, and it has had many different names over the years, because the property has been leased from a single owner for quite some time, and it's changed hands a couple times over the years, but most recently, it changed hands when Carl Icahn bought it. And I was telling you before we started here, icon's an interesting guy, because he is, I'm gonna date myself. He's Richard Gere from Pretty Woman, yeah.
Tyler Cauble 3:07
So Nathan used this analogy before we went live, and I was like, I've actually never seen that movie, but
Speaker 1 3:13
not that suave, like, I don't think he's that good looking either. So he is his whole investment strategy and well, not his whole part of his investment strategy has been to buy companies and strip mine them, basically, go into them, take out the parts that have value, sell off the pieces that don't. And what happens inevitably with that is companies go bankrupt, and blight occurs in different locations. I'm not saying this is a dig on Carl Icahn, because I don't need a billionaire coming after me, but I am like, I think it's been an interesting investment strategy that emerged sort of in the early 80s. In fact, Danny DeVito did a movie about it. This is a good one. It's called yourself again, I know it's called other people's money, and it follows an investor, kind of like this. Anyways, he bought this thing. And I don't think that anybody really was paying much attention. I know I really wasn't. I mean, this happened while I was here, and he bought the company. He didn't buy the land. The land had been leased for ages from a single owner, and the lease was these 45 acres plus or minus. And Carl bought the company that owned it, PSC metals. And I think a lot of people looked at him sort of like, what are you doing? Getting into scrap metal. There's nothing to spin off from this. There's nothing to mine from this. It's already it literally is the refuse. It is what it is. It is from buying something. And so what people didn't see was, this is like the best chess real estate play of all time. It's like, I'm gonna buy this company. I know the term of these leases, and I. Know that when the leases come up for renewal, there's only a single use case for the property, and I've got it, and the companies that might be willing to sign a lease like this in this location aren't located nearby right now, and so I'm going to use that as leverage to buy the property. So he did. He bought it. I think the price tag was about $25 million which is mind blowing. That's
Tyler Cauble 5:29
so cheap. It was cheap, even back then, so cheap. But, I mean, it makes sense, because you'd be so many people are scared about environmental concerns,
Speaker 1 5:35
yeah, which we're gonna and that still exists, by the way. But then Oracle comes to Nashville in what 2020, 2021, and says, we're going to invest on the other side of Titan stadium. We're going to spend, what is it? 250, $4 million it's a lot of money on 60 acres, 60 acres. And in addition to that, because they spelled it, they gave us the blueprint of this whole thing, by the way. So, you know, spoiler alert, I'm telling you how this whole all thing ends for 250, $4,000,000.03 years ago, Oracle bought this piece of property that was in similar condition. It was an industrial use. So it has oil and gas storage on it, has metal storage on it, those sorts of things. And it's multiple parcels broken into odds, odd parse places. The grade is such that it sits in the floodplain, all these things. And they said, All right, we don't have any problems spending $254 million in addition to that, we're going to pledge $170 million in public infrastructure improvements, including a new pedestrian bridge across from East Nashville into downtown. It's self serving, but who cares? Like, it's a great public public good, and we're also committed to cleaning up the site. They didn't put a price tag on the cleanup, but we know that the terms of the deal were such that they at least needed to spend 250, $4 million in the property and another 100 and 70 million on public investments. That's before we get to clean up. And so we can do the calculations on stuff like this. And that puts the price tag on those 60 parcels or 60 acres, I gotta think, close to $500 million
Tyler Cauble 7:27
and that's it four years ago. Yeah?
Speaker 1 7:29
So what has happened in the real estate market in the last four years? It's been really bad, right?
Tyler Cauble 7:37
Yeah, it's, it's, it's only kind of gone up in that. I mean, that's the thing. Like, even back in 2008 or 2009 the height of the the economic crisis, Nashville still went up 1% real estate values at the height of the great financial crisis, yeah. So there's no telling how much real estate, especially in that area, has gone up since then, because Nashville is still an incredibly safe investment for a lot of real estate investors, yeah,
Speaker 1 8:01
and you know it is, we're talking about waterfront. So it's not, we're not talking about landlocked parcels that well, what's interesting about this is this piece of property actually, mostly is landlocked, but it has adjacency, and it has a single parcel that is waterfront, so we get to call it waterfront. And so waterfront property anywhere, I don't care where it is, anywhere in the United States, does not depreciate at the same rate, and it also doesn't appreciate at the same rate. The Delta is massive, disproportionate,
Tyler Cauble 8:34
yeah. And for those of you all that are listening on the podcast, you're not joining us live on YouTube, we do have a map pulled up showing how close this parcel is to downtown. I mean, you're literally across the street from the Titan stadium, right? You're on the river, which just across the river from this site is Pinewood social, right, just so that everybody kind of gets an idea of where we are. To the east, it's bordered by the interstate. And to the west, you've got Korean veterans Boulevard bridge
Speaker 1 9:03
and all of that, you can already start to see the makings of it. Cumberland Park was the first move by Nashville to start redeveloping the riverfront, and the Titans stadium is the next set. So Titan Stadium, where it sits right now, is going to move back where its parking lot is in that image, and the front part does not get replaced by parking lots. It gets replaced by redevelopment and park settings along the river. And so what is happening is ultimately a continuous Greenway that will extend, I gotta, I think it's 40 miles of Greenway.
Tyler Cauble 9:42
It's a lot of green. It's a ton they've been working on that. I mean, Mark deutschman has really helped, yeah, lead the lead the charge in the Nashville greenways. But, man, there. I mean, let me see if I can find something on the greenways while you're talking about that. Yeah.
Speaker 1 9:54
And so, in fact, I was at a ribbon cutting for the reopening of the Greenway by sound stadium. In this last week, was going to do a shameless plug for one of my coffee shops. But
Tyler Cauble 10:04
everybody knows I hang out at retrograde, retrograde coffee
Unknown Speaker 10:08
by
Tyler Cauble 10:10
the sound plugged here like every single episode anyway.
Speaker 1 10:13
But you know, this Greenway is massive. I'm really curious. I'm probably exaggerating the total length of it, but it's huge. It runs all the way from Donelson all the way into North Nashville, and what they have created by doing this, Nissan stadium is starting to fill in these little gaps that existed in the Greenway. That's
Tyler Cauble 10:34
right. So you can see here it stops basically at Riverfront Park over by Nissan stadium, and then it stops over in Shelby Park. Yes, before you kind of get into East Nashville, and they're planning on connecting those two stops, which means you can basically go from, I mean, North Nashville, all the way to Hermitage, Donaldson, without ever getting off of the Greenway. Yeah, it's
Speaker 1 10:56
huge. It's not 40 miles, but it is. It is every bit of 25 or 30. Oh, yeah, yeah. And so you know what they've been trying to what Metro wants to do, without spending its own money, is start connecting these pieces. And that is only of tremendous benefit to the city. The envision East Bank, stuff that finally came to fruition with the with the Titan stadium, happening. It's finally happening that has been talked about since before I moved here, and East Nashville in particular, stands to benefit the most from this. It's huge. Oh, 100% and you know what we what we are always looking for are, how do we, how do we preserve and protect and then promote waterfront opportunities in our cities? And Nashville has done a particularly bad job of this over the years. And I think, you know, we can learn some great lessons from cities like Pittsburgh, like Cleveland. You know, in the late 70s, early 80s, the river in Cleveland caught fire. That's how dirty it was. Yeah, it's disgusting, and now it's one of the prettiest spaces in the country. It's a, it's a, it's a monument to industrial sort of redevelopment of sites. And so we have the opportunity to do something like that here, and it's exciting. I
Tyler Cauble 12:17
think, I think Pittsburgh is the right city to compare it to as well. Because, you know, the the comparison that I always hear is Chicago, and that's not fair, right? Because I know that Chicago has really gone all in on its waterfront. Chicago's flat, it's relatively easy for you to build massive towers along the riverfront there, whereas in Nashville, we've got some pretty serious train I mean, there's, there's points where it's 80 to 100 feet down to the water. Yeah, right. So it's tough to really develop greenways on that, agree, because it's so expensive. I mean, when, when you first heard about this? I mean, this is, again, this is a, this is a deal that we've all been thinking about for, I mean, our entire real estate careers, because it's really interesting to think through the implications of what could happen. I mean, what were your initial thoughts,
Speaker 1 13:00
oh, my God. To be clear, it still might not happen. That's right, like it's going to auction, and which, by the way, is the exact right venue for it. The problem is that you nailed it. This is, probably, presently, is the largest land redevelopment opportunity in the country, I won't say the world, because I don't know enough about the world to know that that's true, but it's massive. And so you got to what's, what's great about this is we, probably, in the hour that we're here, could, could sit and make a list of the people that can buy this. Yeah, I was going to say, I mean, there's, there's 10, right? Exactly. There's 10 people. It's, it's hedge funds, right? It's, it's hedge funds and and pension funds that could do this. It is maybe a foreign investment house, though, I'd be very surprised if it was allowed. I don't know, like, the legalities of it. I don't think a single wealthy individual wants this. I don't think it's right for them. It is some other kind of REIT that exists out there that. But that REIT would have to be so well capitalized, and they'd be hap they'd have to be willing to let their entire board of directors turn in a single vote, because that's exactly what would happen. So, I mean, it's a tiny list, it's a Goldman Sachs, right? It's, it's somebody coming in with the best per spring. It's
Tyler Cauble 14:29
a Hudson Yards type of, yes, I mean, obviously not that scale, but it's pretty big, and
Speaker 1 14:33
Amazon's already here. So like, it's not Amazon, yeah, right. It's not Oracle, it's not Oracle. So, boom, gone is it Facebook? Is it meta? Be interesting? It would be interesting. I can't imagine. You know, meta just laid off a ton of people. Twitter can't afford it, or X, X, whatever. Yeah, they can't afford it. And it's not, it's not really suitable. For something like that. This site has the strings that are going to be attached to the redevelopment of this are going to be so, like, they're going to be really burdensome. So it has to be somebody who had, am I allowed to swear on this thing? Yeah, I don't care. It has to be an organization or a person that has fuck you money, yeah? Because they just can't care what
Tyler Cauble 15:22
has to be and it's and it's got to be somebody that because, I mean, you know that no matter what, what they want to do, they're going to have to work with the City of Nashville and the federal government, that's right, yeah, which means that it's going to have to be somebody that the city of Nashville and the federal government want to work with. That's right, right? Because otherwise, there's no point in buying it. That's, I
Speaker 1 15:40
think that's exactly right. It will be remarkable the terms of the deal. So Metro just do that? Well, yeah, I think the terms of the deal are going to be well, it the zoning right now is not permissive for the ultimate end use, right? So it has to go through a rezoning process. That's Metro's golden ticket, right? That's them able to say they get to hang on, right? We'll, we'll sign whatever you want, but you have to do ABC through Z, and ABC through Z, by the way, is complete. The Greenway provide flood mitigation along the Cumberland River, provide public benefit in some meaningful way outside of the Greenway. So that's going to be parks, and it's going to have to have, it's going to have to have some affordable housing component,
Tyler Cauble 16:30
like, that's, that's like a non starter, got it, yeah,
Speaker 1 16:33
gotta have it, right? And so what will happen is, any, any developer worth their salt, is going to say, Oh, I can't do hem and haw about it, right? But we know that whoever's buying this really doesn't get to hem and haw because they don't care. And so it is going to they're going to say yes to all of those things because they can't. They cannot let it go. It's a legacy property, that's right, cannot let it go. And it's going to become vertical mixed use, because it's going to be so damn expensive that you cannot do townhouses. Can't do it. No, not possible. No, you got to have density at a vertical scale. And so in addition to that, it's going to have commercial at a vertical scale. It is going to have probably some hospitality component at a vertical scale. So we're talking about another hotel in Nashville, and because it's on the water, it's going to be brand like, I think the Four Seasons probably kicks themselves a little bit, because they're like, Oh, we could have waited, but they've got a beautiful property, so it's hard to fault them, but this is going to be an Auberge. It's going to be, well, the
Tyler Cauble 17:42
Ritz fell through.
Speaker 1 17:43
I can't Marriott's in trouble right now. They're having some difficulties. I can't imagine them investing money in a Ritz Carlton here. You think? I don't think so. I think I could see Hilton coming in with, like, a Waldorf brand. Yeah, you know, I think that if he wasn't so, God, I'm gonna use his name, and I can't, I can barely handle it. I think that Trump would love to have something here, God. And so I think that, you know, we there's gonna be something like that here, yeah. And then, in addition to that, I think that, you know, the housing cases are gonna be tied to mdha. And so MDHA is gonna say it has to be X percent affordable or income restricted housing, and then it's going to have to be because you don't want to put people in us like an isolated setting. It's going to be mixed income, and so you're going to have multiple levels of that. I don't think that Metro is going to ask for any ownership stake in it. I think they learned their lesson on the original Titan stadium. Yeah, I think there's an opportunity here. I don't I don't know that it will happen, but I think there's an opportunity here for the Sports Authority to get involved. Originally, when this got announced, I thought this is finally where the baseball stadium will go, but I don't think that that's what this will be. I think
Tyler Cauble 19:01
it's gonna be way too expensive. I just don't know how you can make I mean, I get it, you can go back to the city of Nashville and state of Tennessee and ask for some money to make it happen. But, you know, I think, I think Nashvillians right now are got it about up to here in terms of giving money to sports teams. So I think that's probably true. That's gonna go over and Justin
Unknown Speaker 19:20
Timberlake got a DUI, so we can't, we can't, yeah. I
Tyler Cauble 19:22
mean, what the hell, our poster child, right? What? What do you think it's going to sell for? I mean, if Oracle went for what it did, yeah, 60 acres. What do you think this is gonna I mean, ballpark, I know it's an auction. So who knows?
Speaker 1 19:38
400 400 million? I think maybe, yeah, I mean, it's, it's
Tyler Cauble 19:43
not a bad price, really,
Unknown Speaker 19:44
I don't, I
Tyler Cauble 19:45
mean, I know it's crazy high, don't get me wrong. It's also
Speaker 1 19:48
going to cost $200 million maybe more to clean it, because it is, it has been filled with heavy metal for 100 years, yeah, and so, and it's on the water, so I. I cannot. I told Steve, who you've had on this before. I told Steve the other day, it's gonna be a Superfund site. And he said it will be, I don't know. I mean, the problem is a Superfund site means that somebody in the private sector couldn't agree to clean it up. So he's probably right in that it won't be an official Superfund site, but I think that it is going to be on the scale of a Superfund cleanup. Oh yeah, which, by the way, if anybody's excited about the project, means that we're 1015, 20 years away. Oh yeah, it's
Tyler Cauble 20:32
going to be a while. Yeah. I mean, there's only a couple of options to do, if it is technically a Superfund site, or if it's as contaminated as everybody thinks it's going to be one, which is very expensive. You haul off all of the dirt until there's no more metals in the soil, which means that they could be digging for quite some time. Yeah. The other option is they basically build an incineration factory on site, and then start throwing the soil into it until it's clean. That's also very expensive. You don't really have good options here.
Speaker 1 21:03
No, it's terrible. Here's the benefit. So the geology of Tennessee works in their favor. The limestone. Limestone is so shallow here they could dig down and hit limestone or hurry. And we know that limestone is on that site because it's elevated and so that it's on a shelf. My My stepfather just moved here, and he's a geologist by trade, and I love driving around Nashville with him, because he's give you 100 million year history of Tennessee. Yeah, what he sees, and I think, you know, might not take quite as long to clean it up as we think it would, just because of what they're going to hit, but it's going to be expensive, it's going to be a big deal. It's going to be something needs to get cleaned up. That's
Tyler Cauble 21:40
funny. I get asked all the time, like, what's the best job that you could have to get started in commercial real estate? I've never thought about that. But geologist is not a bad one. If you understand the soils and how all of that is composed, that's super helpful. I mean, it's digging into it there. I know plenty of developers that should have had a geology degree, and probably did have one by the time they were doing their sites. So it's
Speaker 1 22:00
really, you know, mining companies, that's who they hire, yeah, you know, we hire civil engineers because we need a project that's going to be work for everything around it. But mining companies hire geologists, right? And those geologists provide these massive reports that will dig. He can tell you exactly how big a glacier was that rolled through this part of town in what years, what it left behind. It's fascinating. That's so wild. Yeah,
Tyler Cauble 22:28
if you're joining us live, feel free to jump into the live chat. Let us know your thoughts on the icon scrapyard. Let us know what questions you have around what this sale, what this redevelopment, could really mean for the Nashville area, Nathan, it's it set the doorstep, basically, of East Nashville, at least the doorstep to East Nashville from the rest of Nashville, which to us, might be as well be the back door, right? We don't care. We don't we don't cross the river anyway. What does something like this mean for East Nashville?
Speaker 1 22:59
It's a big deal. You know, East Nashville has so I think it's like, let's go back to geography for just a second. So East Nashville exists in the largest geographic block of residential space in all of Nashville. It just that is, that is truth, right there. Look at that. It is enormous. This whole section right here. So I could put East Nashville on downtown, and it would extend all the way through West End and green hills and all of that. And so it is enormous, and that means that it should, it should, on paper, have the same kind of status. It should have the same of you know, all of all of the metrics should be similar to more developed sections of the city. And for decades, it has not. And there's a racial legacy there that exists in North Nashville and East Nashville, and it's the reason that it has been depressed for as long as it has been. But it's now open. It's open for business. And what this site means is that we now will have the final connection points. It's like we're digging a tunnel. We're doing the English Channel, right? That's right. We're right there. We're almost there. This breaks through it. There's a couple of additional sites along the river that we'd love to see trade hands. But they're not consequential in the grand in the big picture here, this one is, this is a huge deal, and what it will ultimately mean is, you know, if you zoom in, you can see Casey Holmes there. Envision Casey. Place is a project that started, and this is an older aerial photo of this. Envision Casey. Well, actually, no, yeah, you've
Tyler Cauble 24:41
got your 50 Shelby right there.
Speaker 1 24:44
This. Envision case so Casey is the largest subsidized housing project in the city. It's huge. You can see it. It's like 15 square blocks, something like that. Yeah, it's pretty and about seven years ago, envision Casey place was a. Joint partnership with the state, the city and MDHA, to come in here and change the overall demographics of the space to make it a spot that people could really excel and accelerate their lives and their wealth generationally, what we've seen is four of the components or four of the phases of Casey have already taken place, and what they really need to be true successes is adjacency to commercial like low density commercial space. They need access to groceries. They need access to the services like healthcare and whatnot. And what we're starting to see with the Titan stadium flipping, Oracle moving. You can actually see the earth being moved on the north end of Top Golf there. That's all part of Oracle. But all of this is moving towards supplying that adjacency that Casey Holmes needs. And it's really exciting bigger picture, though, I've lived in East Nashville for 13 years now. I don't go down to the river unless I'm in Shelby bottoms Park.
Tyler Cauble 26:09
Well, there's no point. I mean, that's that was the next point that I was going to make is, if you look at Davidson Street, which is the last street before the river in East Nashville, it's all industrial. Everything in this area is industrial, and then there's Casey Holmes, and so, you know, of course, like there's, there's no, there's been no chance for anything to really develop over here, because everything around it doesn't promote anything to be developed. That's going to help everything. That's
Speaker 1 26:34
right, what's so interestingly, you know, Davidson Street. Davidson Street is a little bit of a success story, though, and I'm going to give it a little bit of credit, because what Davidson Street is essentially is a series of warehouses, that's right, and what that has turned into is adaptive reuse cases that we've not really seen in other parts of the country. So there's a, you can see it on there. There's a go kart space. I
Tyler Cauble 27:02
wanted to buy that building so bad. It came available for sale not that long ago, but it was before I was doing I mean, I was just a broker at the time. You know, that guy's gonna make off like a bandit. Oh yeah, it's 400 Davidson Street for those. I mean, there's go indoor go karts and airsoft. And it's huge. They bought it for nothing because it's not worth much, and it's right next to this whole
Speaker 1 27:22
thing. But it's a brilliant reuse, right? It's adaptive reuse, without having to spend a lot of money. We're gonna heat and cool it, but just barely, and we're gonna make use of what's sitting there and then along the rest of it, you know, with the exception of that, by the way, that's the little bit. That little parcel next door to it is the little piece that is riverfront of the PS or the icon site, yep, next to that is Citgo and shell. It's
Tyler Cauble 27:47
funny how much you can tell just from this aerial shot. It's like, Look how dirty and disgusting all of that.
Speaker 1 27:52
Oh, it's, I mean, you, if you've ever ridden a bike or walk down Davidson street, you can smell it in the air. Yeah. And anyways, I give Davidson street a little bit of credit, because from an adaptive reuse perspective, these warehouses have been used consistently since I've lived here. Oh, yeah, and that's great, rather than just tearing them down and trying to figure it out like they have been used consistently, right?
Tyler Cauble 28:15
Yeah, it's a good area, that's for sure. It's really, it's really interesting to think, you know where, where all of that is going to go. I mean, let's, let's talk about the environmental issues, because that's, that's a that's a big deal for people that don't understand what environmental concerns are like. One, how did this site become contaminated? Who like who allowed that to happen? Two, what does that actually imply. What does it mean? Yeah,
Speaker 1 28:42
well, you need a little history lesson. So the Environmental Protection Agency isn't very old. Early 1970s is, I think, the birth of the environmental In fact, we could look it up. The EPA, I think, was formalized in the early 1970s and didn't start really legislating, until the late 70s, early 80s, 19 crazy, every so and so on. I get something right, and it feels so good. And so, like, that's a really interesting thing, right? Because, just because something became a thing, and by the way, like, let's give a little bit of kudos to Richard Nixon for just a second, right, like, for actually deciding to move forward doing something great like the EPA is, is a is an objectively good organization. Every developer on the planet is going to shake their head no right now, because they make life hard. Well, I
Tyler Cauble 29:34
mean, look, it's the same thing as sidewalks. Like, I mean, I know that that's been overturned in Nashville, but at the end of the day, building sidewalks is a good thing for your property. It does. It cost more. Yeah, come on. But I mean, to like to put this in perspective for people that are listening, the FDA was founded in 1906 right? So, like, that's how long ago people started thinking, You know what? Maybe we should care about what's in our food. They didn't care anything about all these crazy things. Factories doing whatever the hell they wanted.
Speaker 1 30:01
Didn't know, didn't, I mean, didn't matter. The dealt the timeline. We've
Tyler Cauble 30:06
got a dislike already,
Speaker 1 30:08
sorry, the timeline, because you were right about the founding, right? The timeline between when the Industrial Revolution began and we started doing research into what that legacy would have environmentally was 100 years. 100 years went by before anybody had the temerity to say, Hold on a second. That doesn't look good. It doesn't smell good. I'm not going to taste it like there's something wrong. And so, you know, the EPA was born, but that didn't mean it was just like run roughshod through through the world, like they had to generate and write legislation that could be passed in both houses of Congress and become law. And despite what everybody wants to say, and I see it all the time. The EPA cannot make law. They cannot they enforce the law. They can help write legislation. And so, you know, by the time that this became the use case of this was in the 1940s or 50s, and so the EPA didn't exist. And so it had been this kind of a thing. And just because something comes into existence doesn't mean that everything else goes away. If that was the case, there would be no check cashing stores in East Nashville. That's because they are prohibited on Gallatin pike. But what do you see when you drive down Gallatin pike? They're
Tyler Cauble 31:35
there everywhere. Yeah, I mean, it's, it's like, it's like the ADA. I mean, that wasn't instituted into what
Unknown Speaker 31:42
the 90s? Yeah, I think late 80s, early 90s. Late
Tyler Cauble 31:44
80s, early 90s. I mean, you know, just because something becomes a law, they like, they still have to grandfather everything else in. I mean, that's basically what happened here. So, I mean, after the fact, yes, you can no longer contaminate, but that doesn't mean that it's not contaminated. That's right. And those heavy metals. They don't leap, they don't just disappear, they don't evaporate. They're heavy metals
Speaker 1 32:04
well, and it's a, it's a story of sort of industrial robber barons too, right? They that the EPA can say, don't do that anymore, and you can keep doing it, and the fines are not significant enough to hurt you, and when they do become significant enough to hurt you, bankrupt your company, and then it becomes a Superfund site, that's right? And so that's how Superfund sites come to be. It's not because somebody couldn't afford to clean it up, it's because they didn't want to,
Tyler Cauble 32:31
that's right, and the EPA doesn't want that. Nobody wants because it's going to be somebody's problem. That's why we have the Brownfield programs. That's why we have a lot of protections for these owners and incentives out there and actually fix this stuff up. Fortunately, the location for this alone is going to be incentive for somebody at some point to do it, no matter what.
Speaker 1 32:48
Well, and this one's interesting, because, you know, being on the Cumberland River, even just that little part, the Army Corps of Engineers will be involved. And so, and the Army Corps of Engineers is actually wildly permissive, because they're thinkers. They think about how to solve problems, not just identifying the problem and letting somebody else figure it out. And so I think that there are going to be great opportunities to clean this up and have a lower impact than it might have had otherwise, which is good,
Tyler Cauble 33:12
that's right, if you're joining us, live, leave us a like, leave us a dislike. If you're really not enjoying this conversation, but for some reason you're sticking around. You want to know. Nathan, what does look when we were going through all of the Oracle issues, right? I mean, with with their approvals and all this that and the other, the government decided to invest a significant amount of money into bringing infrastructure and things like that to that, to those sites. What do you anticipate being involved in this site from from Metro Nashville's perspective, and what are your expectations on the community, how they're going to feel about it? Because, I mean, East Nashville is very, very vocal bunch
Speaker 1 33:50
they are, and to their own detriment, I foresee Metro's involvement being one of creating public spaces and maintaining those public spaces, making that connection to the Greenway. Like I said, I think that Metro will put restrictions on height, and that's going to be probably the biggest component that gets argued here is how tall something can be, because, like we said, 40 acres, it's got to be vertical. The cost of it is just too much. And so that's going to be one which is going to require a rezone that maybe doesn't exist, and that's going to be interesting. So do we need to rewrite legislation on how that happens? You know, I know you're an urbanist. I think that this is a great opportunity for the movement that has been slow burning in Nashville for a long time to eliminate zoning categories in the urban core, and that's an interesting idea. I'm not going to say it's without its faults, but I overall, I think it's a pretty good one.
Tyler Cauble 34:49
Yeah, nothing's going to be perfect in all scenarios. That's right, that's the problem with with blanket zoning anything, yeah, is that there's going to be a bunch of outliers that don't make sense,
Speaker 1 34:58
and East Nashville is not going to like it. The. Mean they're gonna, well, that's not true. East Nashville is gonna love it, but they are going to have, they're gonna be public hearings. Those public hearings are gonna be centered around what Metro is paying for here. And the answer is zero, like Metro will not pay a dime to do any of this. And then there's going to be disagreement about whether people can get rich building and developing on this site, and it's a non starter, because somebody with deep pockets buys this. They can, and they, if they can get the zoning across the finish line, they can do whatever they want. And so I think that, you know, while it matters and we need public opinion, and it's going to be crucial, by the way, that you provide public opinion when this starts. Ultimately, that public opinion has to be constructive for the new owner to take it seriously. And we've learned that lesson in East Nashville a lot, where people way too many times, yeah, just complain, complain, complain, complain, until a developer says, I don't care anymore.
Tyler Cauble 36:01
I mean, we saw that happen over off of Riverside village. Yeah, Riverside village as well. Yeah, because we the developer came in. I mean, for those of you all that don't know this story, but they bought that parcel right on the corner of Riverside, what was the, what was the was it Vinyl Tap?
Speaker 1 36:17
That was there? Who was the Vinyl Tap? Was no, not Vinyl Tap. Oh, my
Tyler Cauble 36:21
God. There was a, there was a very popular record store, yeah, that was on the corner. And the developer wanted to do multifamily, yeah. And by right, you know, on the side, they could only do so much, and the neighborhood wanted them to preserve the retail that was existing. So the developers too, it was, yeah,
Speaker 1 36:35
wasn't that great, even the owner of the store was like, No, we don't want to be here. Like,
Tyler Cauble 36:39
build something new, yeah? And then put us it back in there. Like, please build us something new, actually. And so the developer came back to the neighborhood and said, Hey, we've got to get a variance on the back of the property for extended height in order for us to justify saving this piece in the front and not building on top of it, yeah? And the neighborhood said, Absolutely not. We won't give you a variance for anything. And it was the most it was the most confused I've ever been in a neighborhood meeting.
Speaker 1 37:04
I've never sat through something so embarrassed to be both a member of the community that they were talking about and a member of the development community like it was the least productive thing, and ultimately the developer, I was kind of proud of them because they said, You know what you guys aren't giving us, like we're telling you, we want to work with you, we want to help you, we want to we want to do something nice here. And all you're telling us is to get fucked. Yeah? And you know what's putting it lightly, right? And so we own this thing. We can do this by right? I don't even have to call the council person, yeah? And that's what we're gonna do, and that's what they did. And honestly, it looks nice. It looks great. It's a good development.
Tyler Cauble 37:40
Yeah. I mean, that's what that area needed, yep. I mean, the multifamily would have been better. It was. It's much more needed.
Unknown Speaker 37:47
The parking behind is good. It's great.
Tyler Cauble 37:49
It hides it, yep, you don't have to see car. I mean, I hate cars, yeah, to see cars. Yeah, they ended up tearing it down. And instead of building back the multifamily with ground floor retail, which is like every urbanist dream, right? It's just mixed use. Give give people a reason to be there at all times of the day they came back with just the retail because that's, that's what makes sense for them. Yeah, so it's, it's too bad. I mean, let's, let's talk about, I mean, just engaging with the community how, I mean one, because I'm sure there's going to be some politicians here in Nashville that are going to listen to this, right? I'm sure that there's going to be some neighborhoods. Well, if they are, we got to take a step back, right? What are your recommendations for them, for them and the neighborhood constituents, as they're going through this, don't
Speaker 1 38:32
get greedy, you know, like, I think that we're learning that the hard way across Nashville, which is we can impose the will of the people on developers without being greedy about it, and we should. We should hold people that buy properties like this to a higher standard. I agree with that, and I'm a I might be the only developer in the city that would say that out loud. I think that you should, okay, you should. You should be held to a higher standard when you are dealing with something that's so critical to the future, this site will still be important long after we're dead. And it's like, because of that, it's a legacy project, like you said at the beginning of this, and we have to treat it well. And so the politicians that are listening to this, which is, I mean, that's city council people, right? That's right, the state, they're not going to listen to me, but the city council will. And I think, by the way, this, this site, has a really great new councilman, and then, you know, has the support of the former councilman, Brett withers, the adjacent council people, Emily Benedict, Sean Parker, and so you've got a litany of real and oh, and down and across the river. Jacob Cuban, you know, like these are people that are committed to the redevelopment in a smart way of. Uh oh, by the way, clay is the name of the council person down there. Are committed, in a smart way, to the redevelopment of these spaces along the river, and what they have to do is not get greedy. So don't ask for something that you know is going to be a no like do we went down and we did a project in Pensacola, Florida, and we were ready to go to war, because we are so familiar with the Nashville development process of getting into city and having to do argue back and forth about who's going to build what and where and how it's going to benefit the city and whatnot. And we got there, and the city, first of all, their offices, look at the ocean. So not so bad, but they were so helpful, so kind. They said, What do you need from us? And it was the first time I've heard a city behave that way. And that's the kind of attitude that somebody should have when they're doing this, because they have to, the politicians have to acknowledge that the person spending the big bucks on this is inheriting an environmental nightmare, and they're going to spend an unknown amount of money cleaning that site. It's going to be hundreds of millions of dollars, probably, and you have to be sensitive to that and remember that because they're doing it, you don't have to, that's right, and you get credit for that. And so that person, you can hate them. It could be the worst human being on the planet, but if they're going to clean that site up, give them a round of applause, because that's a good thing to do.
Tyler Cauble 41:40
I mean, that alone with with the the potential for all of that in a flood to leach into our rivers and then get in everybody's drinking water. I mean,
Speaker 1 41:47
there's happened already, yeah. I mean, 2010 Yeah. I
Tyler Cauble 41:51
mean, where do you think all of that went? Right?
Unknown Speaker 41:53
It went somewhere downstream.
Tyler Cauble 41:54
That's exactly right. We've got a question from Kyle. I think this is a pretty interesting one. Could they connect to the 155 with the bridge creating a town center to bring in more businesses? Long term plan, of course. What are your thoughts on that
Speaker 1 42:06
the 150 isn't Briley Parkway, 155 I have no idea.
Tyler Cauble 42:10
I actually was thinking about that. I was like, Wait, which one is the which one is the 155
Speaker 1 42:15
Briley was 155 Yeah, that's our 155 is up there.
Tyler Cauble 42:19
It's probably Yeah. Maybe they mean 24 could they connect to the or maybe it's the Korean Veterans Memorial Bridge. Hold on.
Speaker 1 42:30
Let me read the questions. Could they connect to the 155 with a bridge creating a town center to bring in more business long term plan? Of course. I mean, the answer, even without knowing if that's the right piece of roadway or not is, yes, you could theoretically connect to this bridge to 24 and I think that then involves the state, and it starts getting a little tricky. I think right now, the city and the state are working really hard to eliminate exits off of 24 and reimagine how people get on and off that stretch of freeway Korean vets. Is not going to change. It might get bigger, which would be kind of interesting. And you know, on the other side of John Seigenthaler, there's going to be an additional pedestrian or other side of woodland, there'll be an additional pedestrian bridge that Oracle build, and so that will be really interesting. Sorry, keep Yeah, Jefferson, so that's going to be an interesting one. There's a decent chance that they are required to build significant infrastructure on this. But keep in mind, the owner of the property may not ultimately be the one that develop develops it. And so the good master plan it, that's right? And there's a chance, by the way, that much of this happens in a ground lease, right? And so that's
Tyler Cauble 43:54
gonna be your thing. Yeah, it'll be. I mean, because Nashville hasn't historically had to do a lot of that, because people,
Speaker 1 44:00
Titan stadium is the best example I can think of. But that's a possibility.
Tyler Cauble 44:04
Yeah. I mean, I would love, personally, to see another pedestrian bridge somewhere over here. I mean, does it make sense for it to be right here, with it being so close to Korean veteran? I mean, look, I would love pedestrian bridges every
Speaker 1 44:15
well, so you've got one in Shelby bottoms, and you know that pedestrian bridge is great, but you can't access it
Tyler Cauble 44:22
other than being far, yeah, that's, that's the thing. Like, if you look how far it is, it's, that's not the one. It's further down. Oh,
Speaker 1 44:27
it's further down. Yeah, it's, oh, that's the train. That's the train. Yeah, yeah.
Tyler Cauble 44:31
It's all the way here. There it is, yeah, crossing into two rivers. Yeah. I mean, you know, I think, yeah, oh, Kyle saying he was looking further to the east, that makes sense.
Speaker 1 44:41
But I think that, you know, there's opportunities to connect this. This is so interesting because 2440 and 65 are and Briley to some degree, but those, those three roads are, they have a stranglehold on downtown. They were so poorly thought that. And oh my gosh, the way that people enter and exit those roadways are just there isn't a time of day in Nashville that one of those roadways isn't totally clogged. And so this is an opportunity to help the state rethink how these things because these are state these are interstate roads, so Nashville has very little say in what happens to them, but it is a great opportunity for the state to come in and say, We're tired of Nashville bitching to us about roads. We'll give you your T deck certification, because T deck is who's going to sign off on the Tennessee version of the EPA if you make x changes to these roadways.
Tyler Cauble 45:39
You know, selfishly, what I'd love to see. And I think that this is probably more approachable than than just general light rail. Like, let's get a trolley system going, and let's have it hub out of here. Well, I think if you had a trolley I mean, it's funny, you know, bringing back trolley barns, considering Pinewoods across the street, that's where historically, they were. But if you had something like that here on site that went all the way down Shelby Avenue, Shelby, Shelby Avenue, oh my gosh, maybe even cut over to Gallatin. You know, you've got stuff that goes downtown, maybe even something going to the airport. Well, part
Speaker 1 46:10
of the Nissan stadium deal is to bring a new transit hub,
Tyler Cauble 46:14
yeah, but it's mostly bus rapid transit. I
Speaker 1 46:16
think that's okay. I think as I listen, I love, I love the idea of rail travel in Nashville. I think that it's a great idea. I think it will be hard pressed, hard pressed for Nashville to agree to it in large scale off the bat, which is why the mayor's plan is a good one,
Tyler Cauble 46:35
which I think trolleys is easy though, like, come on, you get that's so still requires infrastructure.
Speaker 1 46:38
And so the nice thing about Bus Rapid Transit is the infrastructure changes are so minimal, and by having that transit hub here in East we can do what you're talking about with dedicated lanes for bus travel. I think that it's a good start. I agree, Darren, you're right. Light rail. Absolutely no more busses. I here's the thing. I think that Darren would would think that the busses are okay if they're isolated to their own lane, I might be wrong.
Tyler Cauble 47:05
Oh, yeah. Well, I mean, then they effectively are what a white rail would be. That's right, but
Speaker 1 47:10
it's easier to fix. You don't have to you don't have special machinery. If a bus breaks down, it's easy to move off of the roadway and put another one in service. There's a lot to like about bus rapid transit. It is not the problem this way. The problem
Tyler Cauble 47:22
is we've half assed it. We've always half assed it, and you can't do that. That's That's how
Speaker 1 47:26
it starts, like that's the thing. And you know, the train if you're a nashvillian, vote, please. November 5 is voting day. If you haven't registered to vote, I think you've got another day. But you know, we're gonna vote on our transit plan, and it isn't perfect. In fact, it's far from it will never be perfect, no, but this is how you get started. Minneapolis. I grew up in Minneapolis, and in Minneapolis, when I was a kid, there was zero light rail zero, and getting around was a nightmare. And it cost a billion dollars in the 80s if you wanted to install a light rail line. And then in the 90s, they brought it up again, and it was ten billion and finally, in the 2000s Minneapolis is like, Okay, for the low, low price of $30 million $30 billion we will install a light rail line. And it's been transformative to Minneapolis. Same thing in Seattle. I lived in Seattle in the early 90s. There was no nothing other than busses, and it wasn't bus rapid transit, it was just busses. Keep talking. Keep talking, yep. And the interesting thing about that, I'm just going to talk to an empty room now. The interesting thing about that was that when I left Seattle, you still had to get around by car bus, and it was hard. And when I came back to visit a friend, you don't need to own a car in Seattle anymore, which is amazing. It's maybe the most amazing transformation of a public transit system I've ever seen in a pretty short amount of time. This is an interesting side story, while you're looking for whatever you're looking for, when the night that I moved to Seattle, which was in the winter of 1990 we showed up, we landed at sea TAC airport, and we were going to go to our little house, which is in Bellevue, that we were renting. And that night, the bridge over i 90, or the bridge over Lake Washington, which was I 90, collapsed into the lake. What? Because it was on pontoons, their transits was so broken, the bridge sank like overnight, nothing hit it. Someone like this is what did it in? Someone left a door open? What someone left the door open and the pontoons flooded and the bridge collapsed into Lake? Look it up. It's hysterical.
Tyler Cauble 49:32
Well, the reason I was jumping up is to go grab my copy of walkable city rules by Jeff Speck, phenomenal book if you've never read it before. But the first rule on selling walkability on wealth talks about, how much does your commute cost or save society, if driving costs you $1 Right? Which? Let's you know, gas is like three, $4 a gallon, and then you're also spending 30. 4050, I mean, today, probably $80,000 on a new vehicle, which is just absolutely insane. If driving costs you $1 society pays $9.20 so for every dollar you spend on your vehicle, on driving, on commuting anywhere, the United States pays 9.2 times that, just so that you can move your car. Yeah, that's silly. If you pay $1 to ride the bus, society pays $1.50 it is like busses are a quarter of the cost that we spend every year on just maintaining roadways and highways and whatever, so that people can take their single person vehicle to and from work. Most of
Speaker 1 50:45
the complaints around busses are the busses. Busses block lanes of traffic.
Tyler Cauble 50:48
They should? They hold 100 people? Well, I disagree with that. People are 100 cars. We
Speaker 1 50:54
can, we can have both, like it doesn't that's the interesting thing. We can have both. I love this. This, by the way, with so many looking for green energy, why not add green roofed condos with light rail include Park. So I think that whatever happens here, absolutely will include more parks. Yeah, it may include some stages in performance. But, well, that
Tyler Cauble 51:15
actually leads me to my last question, which I think, I mean, that's a perfect lead in, yeah, if you were developing this property. What would you like? What are your non negotiables? We're going to do this. What would you be aiming for? What would you want to
Speaker 1 51:30
have? I'd want to get rich and retire. No, I think no money involved. You
Tyler Cauble 51:36
don't have to raise capital, but you're also not going to make money. What's your legacy? I
Speaker 1 51:39
think that I'd want something that is beautiful, that puts Nashville on the map architecturally, and not just physical, like building architecture. I mean civil architecture. I mean, you know, utility architecture, all of these things. I think that this is such a great opportunity to reimagine what a riverfront can look like and how people can live, work, walk, play, eat. In theory, you could build something here that benefited all the communities around it benefited the waterfront. Think about a water taxi site here that people could access to go up and down the Cumberland River. Now you've done something which, by the way, this is a word I hate in development, but I'm going to use it right now. You've now activated the entirety of of the Cumberland from start to finish. There are water taxi sites along the Cumberland River, but they're trash, and so if you have a centralized site. I was in London this summer. It's a little humble brag, I guess, and because we went to Taylor Swift, so it's real cool. But I, you know, there's Uber boat, literally, like a there's an Uber boat. Get on the boat, on your phone, kind of. It's like a giant water taxi, but Uber runs it. And so it's like, runs up and down the river. It's fast, it's efficient. And so, like, we can have that here. And so whatever gets built here should benefit the public good by providing spaces people want to linger in. So parks, that park setting that we talked about, a place to feed yourself when you're there. I don't think there should be a stitch of parking down here, not a single parking space. I think it should be green or vertical. I'd
Tyler Cauble 53:30
love to see it $100 an hour to park a car down
Speaker 1 53:32
but I think it should be so easy to get here that nobody can complain about it. Yeah, so like the bus drops you off, and you step off, and there's someone sitting there with a soft serve cone for you, like, that simple, right? And that's, that's, that's a daydream. But you asked me to daydream, I think that that would be really great, that it nobody could complain about not being able to park here, put the parking lot someplace else, like some like, park and ride it. I don't care, but do not put it in downtown. Don't put it adjacent to the river. It causes more environmental concerns. It's bad news. We're next to all these great parks. Activate those parks more. Ascend amphitheater starts, by the way, this benefits ascend in a big way, because there's been a lot of noise complaints about ascend, which I think is nonsense, but it's ridiculous. It does, in fact, have the ability now, if you go vertical, just block some of that sound. So I think it's a great opportunity along Cumberland, yeah.
Tyler Cauble 54:27
I mean, it's, it's likely going to have at least DTC zoning that I would think, and that has no parking requirements in Nashville, which is great. I mean, if you think about, I mean, just to put it in perspective, for those of you all that have never developed a piece of property before that has vertical parking. It's over $100,000 per parking space to build a parking garage. So if you think about how many cars you're gonna have to park on this, this 45 acre site to justify the verticality of it, it's we're talking 1000s. Of parking spaces. So
Speaker 1 55:01
that's hundreds of millions of dollars, at least 10s of millions of dollars. It provides no public it does no benefit, no just so you can park your car every now, and it has to be maintained. You know, if this is developed in such a way that it becomes a green space for people, if you do it correctly, it will maintain itself. That's right. And so, like, we have a great opportunity here to really, you know. So I lived in another place. I lived in Boise, Idaho for a minute, and Boise is beautiful, largely because they embraced their waterfront. Boise's waterfront is seconded like none. It's awesome. You can get on an inner tube, float down the hole of the Boise River, hop off, walk up to a pub, like, just enjoy it. It's outstanding for what, like, it's not a little town anymore, but it's still a little city, and it does a terrific job. That's
Tyler Cauble 55:52
really cool. Yeah, yeah. Jamie is saying, connect the rail from Mount Juliet downtown to West Tennessee. Literally merge east and west Tennessee by rail? That'd be awesome.
Speaker 1 56:02
That's on the list already. I don't know if you know this, Jamie, but you know Amtrak has been in discussions of the state for the last five years, and I think we're finally getting to a place where there's likely to be a new Amtrak rail line that actually runs the direction you're not the opposite direction what you're talking about, but from here to Atlanta. Yeah. And so if that can prove to be a successful transit section, they'll extend it out west. I have no doubt about it, if
Tyler Cauble 56:27
we had a rail that went to Atlanta, I'd probably go there every other week. Oh, for sure. Like, why not? You can work on the train or sleep the whole way. Who cares? That's so easy. I
Speaker 1 56:36
lived in DC. You jump on the train, you'd grab your computer, you'd work for an hour and a half here in New York. Yeah, it was amazing. Like,
Tyler Cauble 56:43
that's a great commute.
Speaker 1 56:45
I wouldn't no security. Like, I mean, which is sort of silly. I shouldn't have said that out loud. Like, but, like, you literally just walk onto the train and it's just comfortable. Yeah,
Tyler Cauble 56:53
it's, it's easy. Kyle is saying, create a place where community wants to be a part of and happy to live. No parking, Rails, bikes, green energy, etc, small businesses, shops, live music and a place to live. Can't get wrong. I completely agree with that. Nothing to say about that. Nathan, thanks for joining me, man and diving into this, this icon about it. You know, I thought about putting together like a super lame play on words and calling it Nashville's most iconic property. Oh, I'm so
Unknown Speaker 57:19
glad you didn't do that. You
Tyler Cauble 57:20
sure it seems like a dad joke? This
Speaker 1 57:22
isn't smart list. We're not going by like it's not gonna happen. I think it's such an exciting piece of property. And I'll be, like many of you, I'll be really anxious to see what happens. I don't want to get everybody's hopes up. There's a, like, a relatively good chance it doesn't sell. Yeah, and that's going to be disappointing, but we'll see. But it's
Tyler Cauble 57:41
exciting that it's it's an option, yeah, for sure. Thank you guys for joining us. Don't forget to like and subscribe. If you are listening on the podcast, leave us a review. I want to know what you like. We'll see you guys in the next one. Are you looking to take the next step toward investing in commercial real estate? But don't know where to go. Siri central offers a comprehensive education and coaching platform designed to help you get started. Our online courses cover a wide range of topics, from the fundamentals to advanced strategies, ensuring you have the knowledge and skills needed to thrive in this competitive industry. As a member, you'll gain access to our exclusive online community and monthly group coaching calls, providing you with valuable networking opportunities and personalized guidance from experienced professionals, whether you're a beginner or looking to take your career to the next level, cre Central has the resources you need. Visit www.crecentral.com to learn more you
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